I haven’t been blogging much of late, due to the busy summer season and not getting much time to think and write about the golf swing as much.
I’ve also been working, when I can, on the changes that I’m making to my own swing to tighten it and make it more of a playing golf swing than a “just bomb it” motion that I have had until now.
I always tell people that you want to start working on the swing with less than full percentage of effort, and that’s because it’s the opposite of what I did when starting out. I figured that when I was swinging as hard as I could and the ball started going where I wanted it to go, then I would be getting closer.
Instead, if I were to start my research over again, I’d go with the alternative method – hit the ball straight, then start increasing the power and distance.
Anyways, another thing I did when starting out was study a lot of Moe Norman. Moe was one of the straightest hitters of all time, and the problem with this is that much of Moe’s setup was to promote accuracy and not power and distance.
He was always short (don’t listen to people who say Moe was long, he was always a very short hitter, and didn’t care, because he was more accurate with a Driver than most with a 7i), because his accuracy setup didn’t comply with the power moves.
I have been looking hard at my own setup, and I’m still finding remnants of Moe’s influence on my swing setup, and I’m working to fix it up before beginning work on MCS 3.0 for that reason.
One thing I’ve done is had quite a reach to the ball at address. While it’s true that Austin’s (and Mike Dunaway’s) arms don’t hang vertical at address, they still don’t have the reach that I have, which is a holdover from my Moe Norman days.
Looking at where my fingers are placed on the shaft, you would see that Austin’s vertical line from the fingers touched his head, meaning that his hands were entirely within the vertical plane of his head. Mine, however, are outside the vertical plane.
That means I’m reaching more than they did, and that’s another reason (besides the open shoulders habit I had picked up) for my swing path being outside-in, even when I hit the ball perfectly.
Making changes, especially changes to things you have ingrained, takes time, effort and discipline not to revert to the old way after hitting a bad shot or two. It will be worth it however, because my swing should more reflect the principles of MCS when I’m finished.
To recap, the things I am currently changing that will be different from my Address setup from ’09 to now- feet positioned parallel to the target line, rather than in the closed position, standing closer to the ball, and a straighter angle between the right forearm and club shaft.
I’m not making the changes merely for the changes’ sake. Everything I’m doing would bring me closer to the ideal MCS setup, and it will certainly reflect in my ball-striking in the future.
“don’t listen to people who say Moe was long”
–Ah, not to be argumentative, but Moe was long when he wanted to be. You can watch him on Youtube, on a range with a road behind it. The road is there because people can’t hit it that far. Moe hit it over the road. Greg Lavern played a lot with Moe. He wrote a book about his time with Moe. There are some Youtube clips of his swing. He even golfs like Moe. He said that when Moe was younger he could hit it 290 when he wanted to (with equipment that we would now consider garbage).
Then, consider Martin Chuck (Tourstriker) who writes, “ I’d say Moe could move the club about 112 – 115 mph. Since he hit it on the button (as I’ve witnessed 1000+ times) and his launch conditions were perfect. He’d fly it 265+ at sea level and take whatever the ground gave him …”
Short? Chuck also wrote, “Besides Hogan, how many times would the best players in the world gather around and watch a guy hit balls??? They did with Moe!”
Short? Moe set 41 course records, 11 in Florida, about 30 in southern Ontario.
Moe never stopped learning, and at age 72 he learned to get more distance with even less effort: narrower stance, arms hanging more, less interference.
P.S. I would not recommend that people try to copy Moe’s setup or anyone else’s. They should experiment to find out what works for them.
I have to agree with Woody, he wasn’t short by any means.
Mike Maves played with him when he was in his sixties, and he was still driving the ball around 280, all that being not in shape and a “few” extra pounds”.
Just look again at your post of the ■Unbelievable Moe Norman Swing you did, I’m sure he was cranking it FAR with that swing!
That being said, Moe’s would never be in the 350yards club MA was in, he was long but not incredible long, but still very few could outdrive him in his prime.
We’ll have to agree to disagree, gentlemen. I have his autobiography, “The Feeling of Greatness,” and it describes Moe hitting a driver for an ace on a par-3 that was about 233 yards long. It also recounts a story where he grabbed Lee Trevino’s 5-iron and hit half a dozen shots so close together you could throw a blanket over them – at about 170 yards.
In the first chapter, in fact, the book tells of how Moe was the only person to hit a 440 yard par-4 green in two shots in a tournament in the fourth round. Moe hit Driver then cracked a 3-wood onto the green. Driver and 3-wood to hit it 440 yards?
Moe wasn’t the only person to hit that green in two because of his length – it was because he could hit his 3-wood straighter than the mid-irons and long irons the other players were doubtless hitting to that green.
The book also describes an exhibition Moe gave where he hit 1540 drives in a single day (about 15 large buckets), and describes how every drive went past the 225 yard mark… not exactly hitting it out of the park, even with a less-than-full swing, and this would have been at age 34.
In “Pipeline Moe,” video, Moe was hitting driver, this is in the year 1995, and he had the new titanium driver with the graphite shafts, and he kept saying, “Watch this one, I’ll hit this 250 yards…” And he always said he could hit it longer with the new equipment at 65 than he could with the old equipment at 45. In fact, there’s a spot in the video where an observer asks him how long he drives it, and he replies casually, “250 yards…”
The amazement he was causing in the video was not how far he was hitting, but how dead straight he was rifling the ball wherever he was told to hit it.
My second and last instructor also shared a hotel room with him during one Canadian event back in the ’70s, and played in some of the same events, and he said Moe could never have played the PGA Tour for very long because “he was too short a hitter.”
If you look at Moe’s swing, it is a half-back swing and then down and through – there is no power in this swing at all.
Like I said, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, because Moe was never known as even an ordinary distance hitting player in his day – always regarded as a short hitter, but deadly accurate.
Well, I never saw Moe except on Youtube, so it’s a “battle” of sources. I’ll bet any amount that Moe didn’t write his autobiography. He probably didn’t even proofread it.
Trevino: “When you talk about Moe Norman you are talking about a legend. And I’m talking about a living legend because the public doesn’t know Moe Norman. But you ask any golf professional whether you are an Australian or whether you are in the U.S. or whether your are in Great Britain… He’s a legend with the professionals. I think that if someone would have taken Moe under their wing… and said, look we are going to play here, and don’t be afraid, there is no telling what Moe Norman would have won. I think he would have won the U.S. Open, I think he would have won all the tournaments around the world. I mean he is that good, and he is still that good. I think the guy’s a genius when it comes to playing the game of golf.”
Short?
When asked “Who’s the best golfer you’ve ever seen?” in a September 2004 USA Today interview , Vijay Singh answered, “ Moe Norman . [Take that, Tiger!] I’ve hit balls with him lots of times. He was incredible. Whatever he said he could do, he could do. If you talk to Lee Trevino and other greats of the game they’ll tell you how good he was. He could talk it, and he could do it.”
Short?
The next one was only a blogger comment, but “…at a Canadian open practice round … he stepped over the ropes of the practice range and started hitting balls. Everyone stopped and watched, including the pros. It was amazing!”
Short?
Moe didn’t hit just have one height for each club. If he played a 440 driver-3 wood, I’m thinking he just wanted to take an easy swing and hit his 3-wood higher. Moe angered the Tour, during his brief stint, by playing holes backward. Tee off with the 9-iron, then driver off the deck to the green.
Couldn’t play the Tour? In1960 (?) 4th in New Orleans, after leading. Some sources say that it was a 3rd place finish.
On Youtube, you can find him claiming to hit 300 and more, right out of his own mouth, not from a book. The reaction of the clinic audiences tells me that they believed it.
On Youtube, you can hear Lavern claiming that a younger Moe could hit it 290. Lavern was a golf pro, not just some dude.
I do know someone who was with Natural Golf, and who did watch Moe in person. I never heard the word “short.”
Putting more weight on eyewittness testimony (the numbers and credentials are there) rather than a ghost-written autobiography, I’m not convinced that Moe was short.
Like I said, woody, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Just because people watched him hit balls didn’t make him long, any more than it made Hogan long – when he was winning everything post-accident, everyone watched him practice – and he wasn’t long then.
Everything I’ve heard about Moe and his swing tells me he was short but dead straight.
Glad we can disagree in a civil manner tho!
P.S. Moe’s biographer spent months gaining his trust and had extensive interviews with him and his family, few friends, etc.
P.S. about Moe. If you watch all of his Youtube videos like I’ve done, 170 for a 5-iron is generous. It appears that he usually hit it 160. Wedge 110, and 10 yard gaps up to the 5-iron at 160. Pretty good for accuracy, eh?
Why would someone prefer to pound an 8-iron 170, and then have 15 yard distances between clubs inside of that? I’m missing how that is more accurate than Moe or Ben…with what are suppose to be the scoring clubs.
Moe’s distances were comparable to Hogan’s (a long hitter). Hogan’s book Power Golf gives his distance with a 5-iron as 155-180. No interpretation for what the spread means. I assume that 155 was normal, and 180 if he stepped on it.
As when using numbers for clubs, Ben Hogan’s 5 would be today’s six. Still, 155 would be on the short end of a 6 although the ability to variate the distance up to 180 is a great talent. The greatest struggle of today’s pros and all golfers is what to do when between club distances and Ben seems to have able to breeze through that difficulty. Don’t know exactly what Ben did to achieve variation in distances but would assume he de-lofted as variating swing speed for distances is extremely problematic but if anyone would do it that way, Ben would be the one.
Well, for Moe, seems like there’s many different information on his lenght! Let’s say he could hit it long if he wanted to (in his younger years), but prefered accuracy over distance?
Would say that Moe became more focused on accuracy than distance. His swing with what it finally became, is not much suited for developing leverage and distance although this is not true in what I’ve seen of clips in his younger years. And too, with his swing, could never figure out how he became so accurate with it due to reach and the extra long clubs. While there is some instruction out there on the “Moe Norman way”, I personally believe only Moe Norman can hit it the Moe Norman way.
Isn’t there an anecdote about Hogan being asked which club he used for 150 yards? And his reply was to hit every club in the bag 150 yards?
” (with equipment that we would now consider garbage)”
Always take great exception to this type of comment when posted. The persimmon clubs are not the garbage, its the swings that are exposed as garbage.
Heh, heh…I was using a general “we,” as in general public. However, I’m sure that today’s shafts can be hotter and are better tuned to each pro. Did they have equipment trailers at tournaments in Hogan’s day?
Also, modern shafts are getting longer, as well as the lofts being stronger. That way, the general public can tell themselves that they’re killing their 8-iron when they’re really hitting a 6 with an 8 engraved on it.
One thing Hogan did was open his stance for mid and short irons, his book says (though I haven’t seen it on video).
If he did open his stance from the 6-iron through wedge, that would mean less windup and distance. But, it might mean more choices on how to flight the ball.
http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/5/51/1000x500px-LL-51a8eb71_Hogan-BallPosition.jpg
I would’nt be sure of anything today.
I think golf was far more a humble game 60, 70, 80 years ago.
Today, marketing, advertising, so called progress/teaching/ technology has thouroughly infested itself. The outcome, you can make up your own minds.
Hey DJ, really looking forward to MCS 3.0!
When I was looking at the 2.0 version, I always thought than you were reaching too much for the ball, and never seen Austin or Dunaway do that either. Standing a little closer will definitively be better for sure.
One thing I can tell you from an amateur point of view, starting be trying to be precise instead of powerfull can be very harmfull. I actually think it’s better to learn to hit it hard, than straight. Main reason is simple: By trying to be precise, you use way too much the upper body (even more thru when starting at an older age like me!), and you are actually having the wrong sequence, which in the end rubs you of both distance and accuracy.
For the last week or so, I started to try to be very aggressive with the lateral move of the hips, and never hit the ball straighter and FAR (for me!). 7 Irons at 180, never did that before when trying to be precise, and drives over 300 yards for the first time of my life!
Keep working hard, I’m sure you will get better!
I know I will and this site is helping so much, thanks once again to all here I read everything but don’t comment a lot…
Jon
Your comments are always welcome here Jon!
As to the MCS 2.0 video and my swing at the time, yes, it is very likely that some people who read the blog have had more success in implementing the MCS principles than even I have.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing, either – I am still at times exploring other things with the swing, a bad habit born of 7 years of researching the swing, and it’s probably time for me to just settle down, break the MCS principles in the simplest method, and then just stick to the swing.
Right now, my swing is wildly variant because I keep tinkering and exploring.
Like the old saying goes, “I do it so you don’t have to!”
One day, I’ll settle down and hone my swing, and I won’t change it… I’m close…
MA spent his whole life refining the swing, and at twenty he was better than most of us, the adventure is the fulfillment, the way we know what we are made of, the false hope and pain of inadaquencies, golf is a microcosm of life, never meant to be perfect! But, when you quit trying, lifes over !
beuf77, I can certainly relate to the journey being more fulfilling than the reached destination. I’m still on that journey, and hopefully not close to my destination, as I would then have nothing to do!
DJ, I look forward to the DVD of MCS 3.0 and am learning a lot. Having to retrain my swing from a mostly arm swing, aka: Fred Couples, it does take time, and some bad shots along the way. And remember it’s not the master with the most students that is great, but the Master that creates the most Masters that is truly great. Jim
In regard to Moe, you dont shoot 59 several times in competitions without being long enough.
he also had Gir and fairways in regulation at a level not even Ben Hogan was close to.
Numbers above 90% seems to be cited with Moe.
You can be long but if you dont make fairways, its no use.
My sources say, shot 59 three times (these were course records), once when he was 62.
Shot 61 four times.
4 double-eagles (sounds like 2 on a par 5).
Isn’t it better to learn to control a powerful swing, than t try and add power to an accurate swing? Jack Nicklaus said in his book that he would recommend all beginners start by seeing how hard they can hit the ball and then learn to control it because it’s easier to do.